Curse

HigherMinion · Feb 07, 2011, 12:12 AM // 00:12

How are pets with 0 Beast Mastery with the following buffs compared to a single spirit, let's say Pain.

[email protected] smite
GDW max rank
NRA (25% ias)

And Pain at 14 channel.

And then a pet with 10 BM with the same buffs.

Would also like to know how glitchy pets are compared to spirits, and using them as meat shields (are they weak without BM? How does armour/health scale,etc.)

Kunder · Feb 07, 2011, 12:31 AM // 00:31

BM only affects base pet damage, the same as a weapon attribute does.

Damage is (26 (SoH) + 20 (GDW)) * 1.33 (pet multiplier) = 61 damage, plus whatever natural damage you have due to BM . At 25% IAS that equates to about 41 DPS. 10 BM bumps that up to 88 damage and 59 DPS if my math is right.

Pain @ 14 channel does 2.5 DPS

. Assuming you meant 14 communing, Pain does 14 DPS.

Pets are definitely more glitchy than spirits. You can depend on spirits to hit their expected DPS most of the battle. With pets you will be lucky to hit 3/4ths to 1/2 the expected DPS with all the running around the pet has to do in addition to the general delay of uselessness it has.

Pet armor/health depends only on level and evolution. Generally pets are fairly hardy because they have a -33% damage modifier, but this also serves to dissuade enemies from attacking them as often as they might so they aren't exactly 'helping' to tank things. The fact that your skills are disabled when they die and that party-wide prot/heal don't work on pets also means that trying to get them to tank damage probably isn't a good idea anyway.

HigherMinion · Feb 07, 2011, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

BM only affects base pet damage, the same as a weapon attribute does.

Damage is (26 (SoH) + 20 (GDW)) * 1.33 (pet multiplier) = 61 damage, plus whatever natural damage you have due to BM . At 25% IAS that equates to about 41 DPS. 10 BM bumps that up to 88 damage and 59 DPS if my math is right.

Pain @ 14 channel does 2.5 DPS

. Assuming you meant 14 communing, Pain does 14 DPS.

Pets are definitely more glitchy than spirits. You can depend on spirits to hit their expected DPS most of the battle. With pets you will be lucky to hit 3/4ths to 1/2 the expected DPS with all the running around the pet has to do in addition to the general delay of uselessness it has.

Pet armor/health depends only on level and evolution. Generally pets are fairly hardy because they have a -33% damage modifier, but this also serves to dissuade enemies from attacking them as often as they might so they aren't exactly 'helping' to tank things. The fact that your skills are disabled when they die and that party-wide prot/heal don't work on pets also means that trying to get them to tank damage probably isn't a good idea anyway.

I believe the discussion in GC was about having four A/R dagger spamming sins with pets. two SoH maintainers and ERs to bond everyone (6 each, same as Urgoz/Deep) with Prot Bond and maintain GDW on all 8 physicals.

Whether or not there is any point in attempting it, is what I wanted to find out. By glitchy, do you simply mean the pet freezes alot before finding the next target? If people call spam and constantly attack aswell, shouldn't it be fine?

Question is basically this:

Will it benefit the team? If yes, how?

Rites · Feb 07, 2011, 05:10 AM // 05:10

though pet mechanics are far from perfect, there are many people out there that don't know HOW to run any kind of pet build, so you will see a lot of people saying it will probably be worthless.

on a personal note... i prefer pets over spirits, and don't bother with a pet unless you are planning on dedicating some space in your bar for pet skills. but of course, this is just my opinion

Daesu · Feb 08, 2011, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

though pet mechanics are far from perfect, there are many people out there that don't know HOW to run any kind of pet build, so you will see a lot of people saying it will probably be worthless.

Unless they have fixed the pet AI, pet builds tend to be weaker than they are in theory.

Experienced human players can exert better control over their pets through the pet controls. I doubt heroes control their pets very well.

Kunder · Feb 08, 2011, 06:01 AM // 06:01

The problem is the variability. Sometimes pets can reach a good 85% of their expected DPS, other times they can literally go through a battle doing 0 damage. They will run up to an enemy, do their usual pause for 2 seconds, enemy is dead by then. Then they wait another second, run to another enemy, and by the time they are done with their mandatory retard waiting that enemy is dead, ad infinitum. But on the other hand if enemies don't spread out your pet can pretty much switch targets in half a second and nearly never waste their time being stupid.

The situation ends up being that the better your team is the more often the first situation happens (good teams kill things faster), and the more you clump enemies together as in the second situation the more you should be bringing AoE-massive-rape spells instead of single target DPS. Which is why pets are never a great choice, their contribution is inversely proportional to how well the rest of the team is playing.

HigherMinion · Feb 08, 2011, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Incase it changes anything, this was the proposed bar to be run on human sins only:

A/R
1. Jagged
2.FoxFangs
3.DBlossom
4.Melandru's Resilence
5.Ascan
6.Crit Eye
7.Never Rampage Alone
8.Comfort Animal

They already kill fast without pets, but would this slow them down or speed it up?

RansomR · Feb 08, 2011, 09:24 AM // 09:24

it's still without a pet. you need charm of comfort animal in that bar to actually have a pet with you.

HigherMinion · Feb 08, 2011, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by RansomR

it's still without a pet. you need charm of comfort animal in that bar to actually have a pet with you.

Oh, that would be slot 8. meh.

Daesu · Feb 08, 2011, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Incase it changes anything, this was the proposed bar to be run on human sins only:

A/R
1. Jagged
2.FoxFangs
3.DBlossom
4.Melandru's Resilence
5.Ascan
6.Crit Eye
7.Never Rampage Alone
8.Comfort Animal

They already kill fast without pets, but would this slow them down or speed it up?

I doubt pets are going to be that effective without the pve skills. Heroes use comfort animal to heal their pets and tend to waste their energy. There is also the skills disablement when pets die.

On the plus side, pets may work better with a melee character to help mitigate its inferior pathing AI.

Amy Awien · Feb 08, 2011, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

...By glitchy, do you simply mean the pet freezes alot before finding the next target? ...

They don't freeze, nor are they glitchy. It takes time for them to run to the next target and start attacking (just as for anyone else), also pet-attacks land on their next hit and can not be queud.

With melee-masters (rangers) pets generally work just fine.

At 0 BM comfort animal has little healing and pet death results in a 10 second blackout.

Also keep in mind that with 4 melee BM's you might be having up to eight bodies hit by AoE.

HigherMinion · Feb 08, 2011, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I doubt pets are going to be that effective without the pve skills. Heroes use comfort animal to heal their pets and tend to waste their energy. There is also the skills disablement when pets die.

On the plus side, pets may work better with a melee character to help mitigate its inferior pathing AI.

Quote:

Incase it changes anything, this was the proposed bar to be run on human sins only

Your reply is about sin heroes. This was being discussed about humans. I posted it in the Heroes and AI section because pets are AI.

@Amy; Comfort won't be used for healing, just reviving if necessary. The ERs will be able to keep them alive spamming prots/Infuse as always. They will also be bonded with Protective Bond.

Daesu · Feb 09, 2011, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Your reply is about sin heroes. This was being discussed about humans. I posted it in the Heroes and AI section because pets are AI.
.

Pets are not heroes. I think you should be posting this in the sin or ranger forum then. They have a whole thread on pet builds.

HigherMinion · Feb 09, 2011, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Pets are not heroes. I think you should be posting this in the sin or ranger forum then. They have a whole thread on pet builds.

Good thing this sub-forum is Heroes AND AI.

Regardless of their armour, they'll be absorbing some damage. Since base damage will mean nothing, a hearty pet would be best for the job, with +health?

Calista Blackblood · Feb 09, 2011, 04:49 PM // 16:49

This thread is fine where it is. Some people need to learn how to read

Daesu · Feb 09, 2011, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista Blackblood

This thread is fine where it is. Some people need to learn how to read

You should move the pet behavior thread from the ranger forum here then and stop the ambiguous forum rules.

Calista Blackblood · Feb 09, 2011, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You should move the pet behavior thread from the ranger forum here then and stop the ambiguous forum rules.

You should stop sending reports and trying to moderate. I am not going to move a nearly 3 month old thread,I retitled this one and moved it to general campfire where it really belongs.

Link me to this behaviour thread via pm and I'll have a look at that too.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 10, 2011, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Incase it changes anything, this was the proposed bar to be run on human sins only:

A/R
1. Jagged
2.FoxFangs
3.DBlossom
4.Melandru's Resilence
5.Ascan
6.Crit Eye
7.Never Rampage Alone
8.Comfort Animal

They already kill fast without pets, but would this slow them down or speed it up?

Mel's Resilience has its uses but in this bar you'll be speccing into dagger, crit, wilderness and beast mastery... spread too thin imo. if you stick with 3 attributes you could have 12 dagger (10+1+1), 12 beast, and 9 crit (8+1).

if you take Heal As One instead of MR you have a strong self heal, a rez for the pet, and lifestealing too... good bar compression. skill #8 is then freed up for something else... perhaps golden lotus strike, or scavenger strike, or brutal strike... or perhaps otyugh's cry. The damage output from four sins doing this could be pretty insane.

HigherMinion · Feb 10, 2011, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Mel's Resilience has its uses but in this bar you'll be speccing into dagger, crit, wilderness and beast mastery... spread too thin imo. if you stick with 3 attributes you could have 12 dagger (10+1+1), 12 beast, and 9 crit (8+1).

if you take Heal As One instead of MR you have a strong self heal, a rez for the pet, and lifestealing too... good bar compression. skill #8 is then freed up for something else... perhaps golden lotus strike, or scavenger strike, or brutal strike... or perhaps otyugh's cry. The damage output from four sins doing this could be pretty insane.

Problem is you need extra energy management to spam dagger skills on recharge; that's why Mel's is used. Doubt Scavenger's would cover it, but if it does then I Don't tihnk I'd take a heal for my elite.

Rites · Feb 12, 2011, 07:30 AM // 07:30

hmmm... initial energy usage is a killer

NRA is 15
AScan is 10 i believe

thats 25 energy without even being able to throw in your attack, critical strikes is good energy management, but not that good